BuzzStream Blog

Latest Comments

Mike, thanks for reading. I think that people feel a tremendous amount of pressure to do something around Social Media, but don’t take the time to listen and you are so right, these folks immediately come off as sell, sell, sell.

Dena, I hope one of those 2 guys isn’t me Seriously though, I think ’social media types’ are often giving the practice of social media a bad name b/c of their constant personal promotion.

/kff

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

I know what you mean . I am following 2 guys on twitter that I thought were interesting. They are so … sell sell sell . Its like they are spamming twitter. I am about to unfollow these idiots. And these are social media guys.

You are right…its abbout listening…. because if you dont listen, you cant connect personally.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

Excellent points, Kyle. So many people want to jump into social media and start the sell, sell, sell. Just as when you first walk into any community, you need to listen before you engage.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

My pleasure Pam, I enjoyed the topic since it is such a simple thing for everyone to start doing and getting involved with social marketing.

Looking forward to reading more on this blog!

/kff

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

Great post Kyle. It strikes me that listening is just as critical to social networking as it is to any good personal relationship. And, by listening carefully and using automation tools to filter the noise, its pretty easy to stumble upon a number of great opportunities for business relationships.

Thanks again for the post.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

Hey Pam, if you’re working with a large set of prospective keywords, I wouldn’t expect that the strategy of writing a general post to test rankability would work except for the most obscure and least-searched terms.

What you can do is screen your list in Hubspot or Wordtracker by competitiveness. Those tools have a competitiveness score that can tell you which ones are just too competitive for you.

The long-tail is a no-brainer because all you really have to do is build content and you’ll rank.

It’s the magic middle that gets you– the terms where there is some competition, but the big unknown is really how valuable they are likely to be. That’s where you’d want to use the approach outlined above to calculate your conversions by keywords. Then you should just aim at ranking for the terms with the highest value and pay less attention to their competitiveness. Like you suggest, there’s really no way to know how you’ll do until you try.

So overall this strategy says: don’t waste time on the terms that are too competitive or the terms that are least valuable to /you/ as measured by a PPC campaign with conversion testing.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

Great advice Paul. Another area that interests me is understanding how to balance your selection between high volume/highly competitive terms and long tail terms.

We’ve had a pretty easy time achieving results on Google for our long tail terms, but have found that we could invest too much time without capturing much value on some highly competitive terms.

The question that always plagued me was: How big is too big when you are working with limited resources? Should I go for big results on lower volume keywords or go for the gold and climb to the top on a high volume terms? As a type A, you can imagine my preference but my SEO guy was not always so thrilled with that notion because it takes so long to know whether you will see results.

You can continue struggling for that term for weeks or even months before figuring out you didn’t have a chance because Google didn’t/doesn’t?? crawl typical webpages for weeks. Not sure that’s still true? One of the tricks we used to test our possibilities was to post content optimized for a broad keyword on a social media site or our blog (those are cached in just days) to see how we fared. With that we had an idea of the results we could attain with a little effort. Not sure if this is a good idea or if it is even current as SEO changes so rapidly. Thoughts?

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

Agree. Small businesses have an even bigger advantage in that they can test things and if they find they don’t work, try something else. They can tweak as they go along… large companies are disadvantaged in that they cannot more with this speed and so experimentation “on the fly” is almost impossible. And of course they have fewer layers and stakeholders - so don’t have to get permission for every action - as does a large company.

Interestingly some large companies are at the other end of the spectrum, they see the benefits of SM, allocate resources and do it and track the results.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

@Nicky - I agree with you that a better business case needs to be made before the Fortune 500 truly embraces social media. This is a topic that I talked about in my last two posts (there’s a good discussion about it in the comments of the last post). That being said, part of the problem is that very large companies look for marketing vehicles that scale, and this is a legitimate concern with social media. Small businesses don’t have the scalability problem, which is one of the reasons why they have such an advantage. Add to that the complexity that comes with being in a large organization (per your comment), and small businesses have an even bigger advantage.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

I reblogged Bob here:
http://nickyjameson.com/2008/11/17/social-media-no-get-of-jail-free-card/

As you say it’s easier for smaller businesses to take advantage of social media. The smaller the company the (possibly) easier it is because there is less hierarchy and probably less of an impact. However there are enterprise companies that are embracing Social Media. See my post. I think if there was more focus on how Social Media solves business problems, rather than simply having the latest tools, and more appreciation for the different big company issues, the “how” as well as the “what” we may be surprised that more will come on board. I don’t think the business case has been made… at least not in language they understand. And don’t forget, when we talk big companies we are talking of hundreds and thousands of employees…. not one or two people or even 10 people. It adds to the complexity.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

@Britton - thanks for joining in. I can see how bundling it into a broader package of activities might reduce some of the pressure, but I’m not sure it solves the core problem that many people are facing in their dealings with large companies. Specifically, large companies look at it as an issue of opportunity cost. I.e., they’re trying to decide whether the return is worth the required effort, given that they’re weighing it against traditional marketing tactics. Given this, the options for the social media marketer are to either face the ROI question head on or try to move the C-level audience toward a different set of metrics (which I think is going to be a tough row to hoe).

There’s a really good comment discussion about this in the Peter Kim post that I linked to above.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

As a former reporter, and now a marketer, this makes a tremendous amount of sense. Appreciate the info.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

Paul,

Bravo! You’ve generated quite a vibrant discussion. I’m with you on the necessity of measuring ROI. I just wonder whether social media interactions should be the locus of our metrics or we should simply bundle our activities into larger endeavors that lend themselves more easily to measurement. I guess that’s not so helpful for a “pure play” social media service provider, but I’m thinking it’s best — in many cases — if social media activities are an embedded input in, say, a lead generation program (justified by the production of sales-ready leads) or a more conventional PR program (with conventional PR awareness metrics) rather than a vulnerable line item that stands alone and must be actively defended.

Best,

Britton Manasco
Illuminating the Future

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

Very Informative. I’ll come back.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

@Webconomist, excellent points! Social media and online community can benefit every phase of the product lifecycle. As for metrics, we’re investing heavily in measuring, analyzing, and correlating the “social interactions” around social media. A bit more info on my blog: http://communityzenmaster.com/blogs/lliu/archive/2008/10/29/do-social-media-and-online-community-metrics-really-matter.aspx.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

@Paul May, in response to your Q about retention vs. acquisition…I’ve used Social Media for retention measurement in terms of customer service in the following ways: reduced inbound calls to a Help Desk, reduced email costs and reduction in bums in seats at inbound centres. For SMB’s they can use Social Media tools to move the customer service to the customers (loyal customers answering questions via Blogs or Wiki’s as an example.)

I think we look at “marketing” too narrowly. In it’s truer sense (as per Drucker) marketing is every outward facing activity of the “business” as a whole. Every point of contact with prospective employees, media, customers and suppliers (all the stakeholders) is “marketing” since it lends to building the Whole Business. This is a more holistic approach.

For the first time ever a business can truly market itself in all aspects. If a business is not marketing itself, it is not a business.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

@Webconomist -
Great addition to the conversation. I’d be interested in understanding why you view retention as the ROI sweet spot, rather than acquisition. This seems to be a pretty common meme, so it would be good to better understand what you mean. First, what types of companies are you referring to - established brands or SMBs? For this group, what is it about retention that makes it easier to demonstrate ROI than acquisition?

@Marc Meyer -
Interesting to view the distinction as one of ROE versus ROI. Captures the distinction between putting a dollar in and expecting X dollars out as opposed to expecting a return from equity built over time.

I still think the importance of this distinction really depends on the goals (per Peter’s comments) and the size of the company. The smaller the company and the more the goals look like traditional lead gen or direct marketing goals, it seems to me that the less problematic measurement is (even though social media is not transactional).

@Tom - On my way to take a look at your analysis and post.

@Jeanne - glad you found us and thanks for your comment. We’ll try to keep it coming!

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

Fantastic blog-> Found you through Twitter- content rich and well written! I’ll look forward to reading your updates to follow as our Real Estate Team in Columbus, OH is keenly interested in all aspects of the social media world. Also, just a quick note to say that we DO use social media venues to keep up with old/current friends and clients and make new friends on the web. Why else would we invest so much time and energy?
Best~Jeanne

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

Hi Paul:

ROI Matters. n a grown-up world where we will be asking clients to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for programs, they will want to know what the payoff is.

If there is no payoff, then they will NOT invest the money.

I have a really good social media analysis and execution case study with REAL ROI posted over on slideshare:

http://tinyurl.com/6oc4rl

And a blog post about it here:

http://tinyurl.com/5z3dbx

I am an ROI hard liner!

Tom O’Brien
MotiveQuest LLC

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

ROI matters, but the problem is, social media right now is not transactional. Eventually we could see some type of premium put on everyone’s conversations or the ability to participate IN a conversation but right now social media is not a black and white e-commerce function. It’s all about ROE.

True you have some social media business models that exist that swhirl around “more access” or more tools, but for the most part, it is still Ad driven with a a focus on data mining. I think most companies are wary of, or are of the mindset of… “been there done that” when it comes to strappin their wagon to that type of business model.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

Totally agree with the comment on marketing is about selling. And Social Media is a marketing tool, and it should contribute to revenues.

We’ve found success in measuring in terms of generating leads (and measuring them) and also in “loyalty” by engaging customers to reduce the cost of service and improve recurring purchases - and this is where I think Social Media can hit the sweet spot on the bottom line - retention more than acquisition.

Social Media can keep the conversation going between the campaigns, building an active customer base and driving referrals and repeat sales…great post!

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

@Ben and @Allen -
Glad your enjoying the content and thanks for stopping by. I appreciate the kind words.

@Shannon and @Peter -
Ah, that definitely clarifies things. Shannon, it sounds like for both you and Jason it’s really an issue of practicality and expectations, rather than one of “guiding principals.” Thanks for clearing this up.

I wonder how much of the unfair expectations are a result of the newness of social media marketing versus the fact that there are more measurement opportunities/tools in the digital world. I.e., does the fact that digital provides so much more visibility into visitors, traffic sources, etc result in an unrealistic expectation when it comes to measurement)?

On a different note, it seems to me that the SMB versus big brand distinction that I mentioned in the post is even more relevant than I’d thought. The differences that I’m seeing:
- SMBs typically have a much less complex set of objectives…primary focus is lead generation, with product management being a close second…there’s very little focus on brand building,
- Lead gen lends itself to measurement much more easily than brand marketing
- less focus on precise measurement because of time/money constraints and because there are no real competitors to social media marketing for the SMB…i.e., SMBs don’t have to worry about the social media scalability problem, and nothing can compete with the cost effectiveness of social media.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

This is quite a good summary of much of the discussion regarding the ROI of social media lately.

Let me please just go on the record as saying that I am nowhere near what I would consider “ambivalent” toward ROI measurement as it pertains to social media marketing. I work every day to make sure that my efforts benefit the bottom line of my employer. I just think that the traditional methods of ROI when it comes to marketing, and especially PR, have always been nebulous and vague. Social media didn’t start this problem, yet proponents of social media are always pressured to solve it.

I think measurement is and has always been more complicated than simply equating activities in terms of dollars earned. Sometimes it’s evaluating cost savings and expanding share of voice. Yes, profits and increased market share should always be measured in correlation to any social media objectives, but simple 1-to-1 metrics hardly ever tell the whole story.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

Nice writing. You are on my RSS reader now so I can read more from you down the road.

Allen Taylor

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet

I met Jason last week and we discussing the ROI issue - it strikes me that social media suffer from the same precision double-standard as digital media in general. That is, while traditional mass media are allowed to use assumptions and approximations to gauge effectiveness, emerging media must provide iron-clad proof of success. Not that knowing a precise answer is a bad thing, though.

If the world of marketing measurement breaks down into brand vs. direct, I’d say digital tactics fall pretty cleanly along those same lines.

Reply | Original | Permalink | Share | Tweet